Paul Marsden, Consumer Psychologist and Lecturer at University of the Arts London, explains the psychology behind the customer experience and how they go hand-in-hand. As a chartered psychologist from The British Psychological Society and lecturer at the business school at the London College of Fashion, Paul shares the emotional connection consumers experience in retail.
On this episode of Winning Retail, we welcome Paul Marsden, Consumer Psychologist and Lecturer at University of the Arts London. Paul discusses the emotional and psychological benefits consumers experience when buying, how trust and integrity must be the bottom line for retail companies to prosper, navigating retail during a pandemic, and much more.
This podcast is presented by Dell Technologies and Intel. Together they help you realize digital transformation across retail by driving IT innovation to better engage with today’s connected consumer. Learn more at DellTechnologies.com/retail and Intel.com/retail.
Tony Saldanha: [00:00:00] Welcome to a new episode of winning retail. The podcast that's been designed for retail executives to help turn the biggest retail disruptions into the biggest strategic opportunities. My name is Tony Saldana and each episode we bring a proven, practical and proper kit of tips from the brightest minds in the world on retail and technology.
And along these lines, I have to say that I'm really pumped today to host dr. Paul Mazda.
Paul Marsden: [00:00:32] Hello there
Tony Saldanha: [00:00:34] Hi, Paul, how are you doing and very nice to speak with you yet.
Paul Marsden: [00:00:38] doing fine. Thanks. Happy to be here.
Tony Saldanha: [00:00:40] thank you. Thank you so much for being here. And I have to say Paul that, um, you've got a, uh, very simple sounding, but incredibly complicated and important role.
You help businesses understand consumers as a consumer psychologist. Is that correct?
Paul Marsden: [00:00:57] Yeah. It's exactly. That's exactly what I do.
[00:01:00] Tony Saldanha: [00:01:01] And, um, just for our listeners. Um, Paul is a chartered psychologist, uh, chartered by the British psychological society and, um, his, his PhD focused on online psychological research techniques. Um, Paul cofounded brain juice, a PLC, which is now system one group, uh, which is a research company that uses online psychological techniques to understand consumers.
And I also have to mention Paul lectures on consumer trends and consumer psychology at the business school of the London college of fashion, uh, where he also researches the phenomenon. And clothed cognition, a term that I absolutely love Paul and I have to come back to that, which is the psychological impact of our clothes and how we think.
So, um, uh, Paul, um, you know, you, you, you, you, you seem to be a guy. Who's got exactly the skills that we need in the midst of this major disruption that's happening around the world. So, um, [00:02:00] again, I have to say how delighted I am, uh, that, that, uh, you were able to join us, but just to kind of get started, um, Give us a little bit of background.
Um, how did we get to where we are here today with, uh, Paul, you being one of the foremost experts on consumer psychology. Um, tell us a little more about your journey.
Paul Marsden: [00:02:20] Yeah. Y'all hi. Great to be here. Yeah. I love shopping. Um, I read, uh, I kind of made me make my living actually going shopping and listening to shelters and working out what, what shoppers monsters. It's absolutely fabulous. Um, and as a psychologist, I know she's shopping can be good for you. There's a fabulous study that kind of motivates these.
What I, what I did is I'm getting a little longer in the tooth. Um, as you get older, the more you shop the longer you wait, the longer you live. Um, or older people are 27%. It turns out less likely to die if they shop regularly. Um, cause shopping.
Tony Saldanha: [00:02:53] Oh, my.
Paul Marsden: [00:02:54] Yeah, something's fabulous. So I make my living actually just trying to understand shoppers and helping, uh, [00:03:00] brands and retailers and manufacturers, understanding shoppers and how their needs, their needs change.
Tony Saldanha: [00:03:06] Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. I'm going to share this, uh, particular piece of statistic with my mother. Uh, we, we keep joking about her shopping habits. Now. I think she's got a good reason to justify that, but, but, but that is so true. I, I, I have to say I have come across this statistic. Um, but, um, uh, and we'll learn a lot more about it, especially in the second half of our talk here today, but, uh, we'd love to learn a little bit more about you, uh, on a personal level, because you've got such a fascinating background.
How did you first get involved with retail? What drove you other than, you know, the obvious love for shopping.
Paul Marsden: [00:03:40] Well, what. I actually got involved with them. And when I finished the university, um, I actually started working for a pharmaceutical company and I got really interested in the patterns of, uh, of purchasing for, for medication that, that the, both that patients need and consumers need. And the prescriptions that.
[00:04:00] But for the physicians, um, we're, we're making, and I got pretty interested in how they kind of people tended to copy each other and they used to be local pockets of sales that, uh, that, uh, uh, were, that were out of the w quite extraordinary. Um, so one example was a beta blocker, which was a hot tablet that I was, uh, trying to promote to down in the South of France as a, as a drug rep and the word.
These beta blockers, which are for our hearts, had massive sales in one local area. And then she turned out that the, uh, the physician was a part of the local, a billion and snooker club. And he was kind of prescribing this thing, these drugs, because they were actually steady people's nerves. And, and, and so they have a steadier shot when they're actually on the, on the snooker table or a pool table.
So I got really interested in how these patterns happen. And so, um, after my first degree and actually being a relatively bad, uh, uh, sale sales person, I actually went back and did some PhD research looking at the kind of [00:05:00] patterns of purchasing and how particularly online technology and fought leaders and opinion leaders actually influenced, uh, people's purchasing, uh, purchasing.
Tony Saldanha: [00:05:10] Oh, that is fascinating. Um, and, and, and I think I, I picked up, you have to know the tip on how to improve my billiards game. Um, That's cool. Um, it's all in the nerves, you know, sometimes bill works, but, you know, ma ma maybe I need to do more than beer. Um, but, um, now, um, you, you find yourself, um, you know, in the midst of being extremely relevant, not just because of, um, The retail apocalypse and, you know, everything that's happening to retail, but, but also because of the pandemic.
Um, and so this is one of those things I, I, I've been really waiting to talk to you about, um, you have done a lot of work in the past, on the psychology of pandemics, right? And, um, I'd love to learn more about how can our understanding of the psychology of pandemics help retailers right now.
Paul Marsden: [00:05:59] Okay. So I [00:06:00] think there are a couple of things to say. I think the most, probably the most important thing. And it's. So important that a psychologist call it fundamental. Um, there is an error that we make when we're going through a pandemic or any kind of crisis or anytime of, uh, of all of stress. Where we actually think things are going to change forever.
And you'll see on all the headlines, the going out, you know, how retail is going to change forever. This is accelerating the retail apocalypse. We've got the Corona apocalypse now, Corona get, and we're getting into a pen session. Then the whole, you know, the whole enchilada people. But saying, you know, cold calling nurses.
Okay. This is going to be a real tipping point in the change in the world of retail, but everything we know from a past health scares and also from human psychology in general, is that we tend to own. Overestimate the impact of what happens today on what's going to happen [00:07:00] tomorrow. Psychologists call this the fundamental attribution error.
And what that means is that we make a fundamental attribution error in attributing behavior to ourselves and to shoppers and shoppers against change when they're actually responding simply to the context as is. And when we looked at SaaS and we look at previous. Big health scares. Yes. When the people were forced to change their shopping habits, they did.
But very quickly people came back and they behaved in a similar way. They snapped back and then they were resilient. And so I think the first thing, but what I spend a lot of my time talking to both manufacturers and retailers saying, Oh, everything's changed. Everything's changed. Actually, probably not.
Everything has changed. Things will go back to some kind of, of, of, of normal. um, because people respond as the context changes and that the virus and that the, the, the pandemic threat do [00:08:00] disappears. We will revert to our former pre COVID COVID cell cells. Um, that that said, I mean, I think, um, the, the other, the other big insight, I think if you want to.
Still the psychology of, of pandemics down into, you know, so what, what does this mean if you're a retailer? I think that the key insight is actually to see a pandemic, not as one simple biological contagion, you know, that the COVID virus that is spreading, um, through, through, through, through, through the population, but actually understand a pandemic as four different.
Contagions now the first. Contagion when we can talk about it. And I do interrupt because I'm I'm Electra and I will just talk to kingdom. Come say.
Tony Saldanha: [00:08:43] No, no, no, no. I, this is fascinating. So please go on. Yeah, I, um, uh, I, I, uh, I've heard you previously on the four, uh, pandemics, and I have to say that this is like, you know, edge of your seat. Uh, kind of exciting for me. So please go on.
Paul Marsden: [00:08:58] Okay, well, both fabulous [00:09:00] thing that somebody isn't enjoying it at least, but you say, so it's psychology. Pandemics is, is, is complex. And there's a lot of, there's a lot of research that's gone into. Previous health scares. And so whilst everybody's talking about this being a kind of a black Swan events that unprecedented never, never happened before we had a big health scares.
Um, but before, and we still got big health crisis, if you think of the HIV AIDS AIDS pandemic, the Wolf's what's happening now in terms of its toll on, on human health and human lives. There's a lot of research has gone into how. How shoppers behave, um, during, um, to, to, to, to, during a epidemic. So apart from this point, the people do snap back off to us and we can overestimate the impact of of today.
The other big insights is this idea of four different contagions. Now the first contagions thing is this contagion, um, the biological contagion and this only a logical contagion is the one that's spreading that actually [00:10:00] gives you is the COVID virus. And what we know from previous research into, uh, into entail shocks is that, uh, naturally enough people become more focused on their health and they get more focused on hygiene, health, and hygiene.
And we have. What psychologists call a behavioral immune system. And that behavioral immune system is like your internal immune system that tries to fight off viruses. But the behavioral immune system actually influences our behavior. And so we try and stay away from things that are unknown quantities.
I've discussed reflex, come tiled up to 11. So anything we might find. It's a little on tasty. It's a little bit dodgy, a little bit sketchy was like, we're going to stay right away from so we can really help anxiety rises. And so retailers really need to address this health anxiety. Is this health anxiety that though I think that first pandemic and dealing with, with, with shoppers.
[00:11:00] Health anxiety. People want that. You know, we used to talk about creating that deep experiential, um, uh, experience that people want to increase dwell time in malls installed, and now shop has just want to get in and out as quickly and safely as possible. And so we, and we need to create the environment to do that.
That though, I mean, pretty much. Yeah, it is relatively self self evident, but I think it's more interesting for retailers and where there's an opportunity, I think, to kind of steal them up on some of, some of the competitors to look at the other three contagions these, the viral, uh, these viral things that are spreading during a pandemic.
And the second one, um, is a contagion of fear. Whenever there's a Pendo, when there was a health shock people, as people's anxiety rises, people become more fearful and it's a general more fearful. They become more anxious, more, more generally, there is a fear of the other. We often see a rise in, in xenophobia rise in the.
[00:12:00] So that, that the forum at the unknown, um, as people become more fearful, not only for their, that they're in health, but for their livelihoods because, uh, pandemics rules say you have the economical that we initial health shop, and then you have an economic aftershock. And so, because we've got this fear, what consumers and shoppers are looking for for retails is a safe space.
And particularly amongst younger consumers, you know, we often are younger shoppers seeing about, you know, these kinds of raves, you know, locked down, raves going on, and a young, a younger, younger shoppers and consumers actually not taking too much notice about this. However, at this generation generation, Z is actually one of their trademark traits.
Elevated anxiety, which we see in it, education, um, uh, education, we see the rise of sort of safe spaces, cancelled culture. We have built around anxiety. And so other coronavirus is doing is basically putting this, this, uh, uh, generational and more wide societal anxiety [00:13:00] on steroids. Um, and so. Creating thinking about retail and creating a safe space just as we use the, and I have to, it had to create a sort of safe sex within the whole HIV AIDS.
Endemic thing could think of creating kind of safe retail, um, and what that actually means by reducing people's risks. And that practically means, uh, giving, uh, you know, cast iron recommendations and, uh, uh, get guarantees, um, for, for consumers. So they just. Generally feel safe. There's imagine that, you know, you're, you, you're treating her kind of massive anxiety picking up people like that, but anxiety attacks.
And how would you reengineer your store and your offer for people who are highly anxious?
Tony Saldanha: [00:13:39] On this, this, uh, particular second pandemic, um, the anxiety, you know, it's actually fascinating. I was reading, uh, about the, um, The, uh, so called Spanish flu in the Americas and pandemic in the 1918, uh, Iraq. And, um, this was one of the things that really struck me. Um, you know, we. Of course the, the, the, the, the, the, the [00:14:00] disease itself is well documented, but I was reading about how people's shopping habits changed as a result of the anxiety, every service chain, you know, for example, that the post office used to use, you know, almost like a brush with a whole bunch of nails to kind of poke holes into every letter.
And fumigate letter so that, you know, when you actually got them, your, your letters were full of holes and they smelled vaguely of some chemicals. Um, and so, you know, obviously, uh, I'm not quite sure whether that had a lot, uh, of, of deep rooted science behind it, but clearly the anxiety and what society does to address that, including of course, uh, in modern times, what happens to.
Gen Z and shopping habits. I mean, you know, that's been around for a long time, but not well documented. So this is fascinating to hear Paul, um,
Paul Marsden: [00:14:52] There's an interesting parallel to your post office in the East, in China. Uh, a and I think now in France, a large supermarket chain is actually having [00:15:00] decontamination tunnels that you walk through and you're kind of squirts, it's almost like punk from PNL. So, uh, Yeah, but Trump, um, bleach. So they, you know, actually put bleach, you go through a, um, a, uh, a decontamination tunnel just to make people feel safe.
Now, whether there's, you know, psychological, this creating when people, people want their we'll have this uncertain, when you're anxious or anxiety means is you're uncertain about what's going to happen. There's you feel threatened. And so actually reducing perceived threat, whether it's real or not is absolutely key for retailers.
Tony Saldanha: [00:15:34] Yeah, so good. So that's the second, um, tell us, uh, about the other two.
Paul Marsden: [00:15:38] Well, the third, um, is actually a, of the contagion, the biological contagion, contagion of fear. The third contagion and a pandemic associated with pandemic is, is, is a contagion of disinformation. And you've probably seen this yourself about all these, these crackpot theories and, and quick cures and conspiracy [00:16:00] theories.
Um, the reasons that Corona spirits theory now that there are so many of these things out there about, you know, who was involved, um, in. In actually developing it. If it's developed, where did it come from in the UK over here, we've got people who believing that it's actually, the symptoms are created by five G and it's all about bill Gates on thing to kind of vaccinate the planet so he can put chips in everybody.
I mean, there's all these, these, these basically. Crazy theories or unfounded theories, um, around, uh, around, uh, the, the, the pandemic and more generally arise in disinformation and fake news. And we're seeing now, now that the whole issue of fake news being played out in media, um, And, uh, and you know, sort of Facebook, Facebook, et cetera, and, and Twitter and fact checking.
So we're seeing this sort of massive disinformation and who, which I know is not hugely popular. Um, in some sectors of the U S right now with health, um, organization. So she says, there's this, they call it a, uh, uh, This, [00:17:00] this pandemic of this information, um, uh, as they say, it has a broader reach than actually the, the health effects of the biological condition in itself.
People just, we just. We don't know how to deal with this. And Emma can, so people kind of invent and we were looking for explanations. And so with these conspiracy theories happened and was, you can ask what's this got to do with me as a retailer. What it means is that as conspiracy theory and this information goes up, people's levels of trust and information goes down, which is why, if you were retail, you really have to double down on trust, offering trucks.
You're you're, which is, you know, your ability to help people and your desire to actually help people. Um, when, you know, we trust people that you think can help us, and we want the elders, especially focusing on, deliver on delivering on trust, um, through your communications to your products, um, is, is super important during a pandemic period.
Tony Saldanha: [00:17:57] Yes, I, and, and, and that is, um, [00:18:00] this, this misinformation pandemic, this there's been a lot written about it. Um, and I have to say that, uh, before I heard you talk about this previously, I taught that was unique to our era. Right. Um, but it is not, uh, and, and that's one of those things that I think psychologically, I find fascinating because we, we tend to believe that.
You know, these are unique times, you know, we have better medicine, we have different problems. This isn't what has previously happened, but your work has shown that, you know, even this misinformation, pandemic isn't Neil and that's fascinating.
Paul Marsden: [00:18:35] Yeah. I mean by that can get in a great place. These things . Spirits that war, um, that, that, uh, um, the, you know, the sort of it was, was spreading this contagion or witches or foreigners. And so these guys are, this is human, this kind of human nature. When we don't understand something, what the human mind is, is a pattern recognition device.
We kind of try and see patterns. You know, we see faces in objects that are faces on there, where we were. [00:19:00] Program to see patterns. So we're trying to explain what's going on with bits of jigsaw. And so we end up saying, Oh, five, gee, that's kind of Chinese. There's gain out of China. There must be five G I'd say it's kind of a very basic human level.
It's humans trying to make sense of what's going, what's what what's going on. Um, and so you get a rise in this, but that creates this need for trust. And so being. Not just there for people, which is what your retailers have. You know, it's almost a cliche now, Hey, we're here for you during the crisis, but being the retailer, you can trust being the reliable retailer to actually be able to help you on one help in a moment of need that.
That, that is absolutely key.
Tony Saldanha: [00:19:42] Got it. And, and, and, you know, obviously these are also opportunities for retailers to, uh, you know, not just solidify their reputation, but to build long term equity, um, with, uh, with their consumers. And so, so that's why I think this, this misinformation [00:20:00] pandemic for the code pandemic. Is is, is such a huge opportunity.
Um, and so, um, so tell us a little more about the Fort.
Paul Marsden: [00:20:06] Okay. The fourth one was especially nice because this all sounds a bit gloom and doom. Doesn't it either. You've got the gun, the biological contagion in the mall actually kill you. So people need more help. You've got the, um, the contagion affairs. So you've got to deal with people's anxiety and an uncertainty avoidance.
And then you've got this just information, which means you have to kind of deliver trust in a world that is suffering from a bigger trust deficit than ever. However, you get. So the fourth one, you can kind of, uh, have a sigh of relief because actually when you get a pandemic, it actually brings out what is brilliant about humans.
We get a kind of a, a pandemic or, or either a contagion of kindness, a contagion of kindness. People actually behave in what psychologists call in psychobabble in approved social way. We reach out. We help people in need. We were busy creating WhatsApp groups or chat groups to help local neighbors. We actually talked to relatives.
We haven't talked to, uh, talk to you before [00:21:00] we actually did. We're actually become more helpful and more willing to, to, to, to help individuals because people want a place to meet. And it creates a sense of bonding or relatedness and togetherness, which when you're having to. Physically distance or socially distance through isolation.
It can bring people together. So kindness is a glue that brings people together. And when you have a pandemic, people do become more pro-social and they actually help each other. And so this can seem like a really good thing for, uh, for, for, for retailers, um, or. For humans and in general, but actually it's got a thing in its tail because there's no actual problem here.
Um, but, but what it does do, it raises the bar for kindness and actually actually retails having to be kind and using empathy, putting themselves right. In their customers in the shopper shoes to actually understand what they want because people are getting more used to other people being kind and helpful.
And [00:22:00] so that raises expectations. And so as a retailer, you then have to actually be as kind or helpful as your newly found helpful neighbor.
Tony Saldanha: [00:22:08] Got it. And, and, and, um, you know, I'm sure you're on the lookout for examples of, uh, you know, retailers really, really getting this issue, the kindness issue and, uh, the inflammation issue. So, yeah. Could you share some of what you see in that, you know, you would hold out as you know, Good. Good steps. Good actions.
Paul Marsden: [00:22:28] I think you've, I mean, you've got, I mean, there are a number of examples of short term things with know kind of repurposing production lines to, to, to make hand sanitizers, uh, for, for mass and as a Bush. You think of, you can get LVMH, Unilever doing fabulous things with, uh, with Cyrex. Um, but these are short term intervention.
And so I think what the challenge is going to be to be is to kind of build kindness into your day into retailer [00:23:00] DNA. Um, as you move forward to really use empathy, to actually help people. Um, it helped solve people's problems, which ultimately, which is what shopping is about. You're there to, to, to service people, to help solve their problems.
And so I think they also, you know, it's too early, early, too early to say, say, I think retailers that do that actually really put good old fashioned mom and pop store service, we're here to help, um, at the service, uh, you know, the central fair that their value proposition, they're the ones that are likely to thrive long term after all these, you know, short term, maybe headline grabbing, but.
Tony Saldanha: [00:23:40] Yeah. And, and that, that, that is, you know, obviously very closely related to, um, You know, not just empathy, but focus on the shopper, right. And the consumer and understanding what their needs are, you know, even as they change, as the pandemic gets over to your point around, you know, the world can change very quickly.
I mean, what loss is, [00:24:00] is basically that shopper focus. Um, I have one other question, this being a retail and technology show, um, on, um, you know, how you think. Technology can help retailers bring some of these insights to life?
Paul Marsden: [00:24:15] Well, I tell you, I think that's a super cool. The question. I, I run a website that looks@theimpactofscreentimeonhumanwellbeingcalleddigitalsocialwellbeingdot.org. And there's a big debate about, you know, what screen screen time it's effects screens have been our savior cheering during this very crisis.
They have been a teacher. You got it. Wear the Netflix thing, whether you're, uh, uh, whether you're shopping, shopping on Amazon, the actual ability to shop from the comfort of your own home, to, to consume it, to consume media, to reach out and contact people who, you know, your, your, your, your loved ones.
Significant others, new screens have been our savers. You know, the debate over screen time [00:25:00] has, is over at least for, for, for, for, for, for, for the current current time. It's just great. So I think retailers are set to benefit from is all the big platform retailers when Alibaba or or Amazon and, and company in the West, they have been absolute fabulous.
Fabulous. It actually. Saving saving ourselves from, from boredom or, or not having the things we need on every, every, everyday, everyday life during lockdown. So I think coming out of this, what, from a consumer psychology perspective, um, what's going to happen is you've got a bunch of people and I were actually being because of the coronavirus have been.
Did across the digital divide and shopping for the first time, I didn't leave. You got any relatives, mom's a mom, dad, or who are shot for their first time. They finally stopped shop the first time, or they finally sort of got that Netflix [00:26:00] subscription and they're consuming. Um, but there's been a significant number of these people who have moved across the digital divide.
And this is changing. People's expectations that this is unlikely to go back because people got used to the convenience of actually shopping from the comfort of their own home and getting it, getting home delivery. So moving, yeah, we're talking about retail. There really is a kind of a, it's been an accelerant to digital transformation and there is a real.
I think from a manufacturer perspective and direct consumer retail and from a retailer perspective, there is now the imperative to digitalize or die because the consumer, the shopper has moved on and has embraced, uh, the digital tools to find and source their sources and fulfill their, their shopping needs.
Tony Saldanha: [00:26:53] Yes. And, and, and to your point about, you know, the, the, you know, many people crossing the digital divide, I have to, I [00:27:00] mean, even as a technologist, um, hopefully I was, um, you know, on this end of the divide even before pandemic, but I surprise myself. I mean, you know, these days I have garden, I used to spend.
Time weekends, you know, literally hours, uh, in the home improvement, DIY shops, which is another passion of mine. And now I have started to buy stuff online, pre pandemic. I would have argued with you to death that I absolutely needed to be in the store because I needed to know what I was buying now. I'm not sure I'm ever going to want to go back.
The store anymore because my habits have changed. So I know exactly what you're saying. And I think, um, this is one of those where there's probably no going back, you basically either digitize or die as you say. So that's fascinating.
Paul Marsden: [00:27:51] No it's going to start. This is nice. Apparently my lecture at the London college of fashion and people said, well, people are never going to sort of buy fashion online. You've got all these startups, these [00:28:00] direct to consumer startups trying to sell. You've got Amazon trying desperately to kind of examine the Amazon fashion.
And so to make it work, but were you seeing the debt where the pandemic people have been shopping for fashion online and you've got your fashion brands, which is, you know, my fashion and says, boom, buying out a legacy. Let's see heritage store retailers. Um, uh, as far as cause people are now, um, are increasingly shopping online.
So you've got two things happen. You've got more people. In the absolute shopping online. And you've got people like yourself who are shopping, who are shopping online, but shopping for more and different things online, um, which, which is, which is row, it's basically increasing digitals, um, market share and being an accelerant for this digital transformation, which of course is then leading to come in that kind of, uh, the people like you hoping it sort of may, it may maybe be shopping online instead of it's allowing people who are.
Already across the digital divide to embrace new technology. So we're seeing the rise of a commerce automated [00:29:00] commerce, which is zero click commerce, where people don't even have to order stuff. You just outsource it to Alexa or Siri or medic you kind of organize it for you.
Tony Saldanha: [00:29:09] Yes. Now that is, that is so, so, so true. My guest today is, um, the, uh, the famous dr. Paul Mazda and. A consumer psychologist. And we've been talking about, um, the, uh, four pandemics, um, that, that are rolled into one. Uh, whenever you have a situation like this now, um, uh, Paul, I'm going to switch gears a little bit because, um, at the beginning of the podcast, we talked about retail therapy.
Um, and again, you know, this is a, another fascinating topic. Um, so, um, Yeah, let's start with basics. Um, you've talked about how retail therapy is a positive thing for mental health. Um, tell us a little bit more, how exactly is that?
Paul Marsden: [00:29:49] Well, so, so the people, you know, you've often you may have felt yourself. Um, a lot of people, I mean, a lot of people feel that when they're feeding down, [00:30:00] they want to go shopping. And that's what we tell their puppy is, is when you actually try and shop to enhance your mood, not. Just for, for, for, for the product.
And sometimes it's not simply about when you're feeling down, when you're filling up, you want to celebrate, Hey, let's go out and make it celebrate every, uh, purchase. And that also is retail therapy. Is this, this idea that you, we can, we can actually manage our mood, um, by shopping. And what's absolutely fabulous is that it works.
Retail therapy works, you know, showing maybe. Keep it in therapy, but it works just as well. Um, because a psychologist is a bit of a kind of a, it's not, it's not so good because you know, it's like I'm out of a
Tony Saldanha: [00:30:41] yeah,
Paul Marsden: [00:30:42] Well, it's like it it's like, Oh, just anymore, just go shopping. Um, I, and a lot of my sort of research that the London college of fashion is, is actually looking at the emotional impact of, or shopping, um, and how it actually, uh, influences, um, uh, our wellbeing.
And I think there are kind of. [00:31:00] Three things in there. And then from the research into it, into retail therapy that tap into opportunities for, um, for retailers as we move into a post COVID world.
Tony Saldanha: [00:31:12] So, um, let's, let's build on that. Um, what kind of opportunities, um, should retailers be ready to pounce upon post pandemic?
Paul Marsden: [00:31:20] Okay, well, well, without getting a kind of unpaid. And people would probably want a psychology lecture, but what's really great about psychology is that we kind of distill things down into useful tools. And this is there's a theory called basic psychological needs theory. Um, which sounds, uh, quite, quite daunting, but it's really, really simple.
And it's validated across the world saying in order for you to be happy, In order for retailers to be happy or to have any human, to be happy. Um, you need three things. New three needs satisfied, and these needs have actually been frustrated by the COVID crisis. And these are needs for autonomy. We feel happy when [00:32:00] we're in control of stuff.
And sometimes, you know, the whole COVID crisis, we felt out of control we're in lockdown. We can't do stuff. We have a need for relatedness. To actually feel connected to each other. Um, we're born alone. We die alone and we spend most of the intermediary to media time actually trying desperately not to be alone.
Um, and so this needs for we're social animals and we need this relatedness now in a world of social isolation, social distancing, the epidemic of loneliness has actually increased, you know, it's increasing every crisis. And then finally we have a third basic psychological need for functioning for, for flourishing isn't is a sense of competence.
We need to feel that the time that we have on the earth, that we are spending it wisely that we are in, we're actually doing smart things. And nobody likes to feel frustrated when you bought, gone and bought something. And then you find it at half the price. Afterwards, you just feel like, um, so we need three things.
I call them the arc of happiness is easy way [00:33:00] to remember autonomy, relatedness and competence, which are three core basic psychological needs. Now where this was, where retail therapy comes in and where the opportunity for retailers comes in is that the, the re when all the experiments done around retail therapy, when retail therapy works is because it does one of these three things.
It either improves our sense of autonomy. So it gives you a kind of sense of control when you're feeling out of control. The other, world's gone, going completely mad. We go shopping. And what, when you're choosing that thing, putting in your pals, get whether it's from a screen or in a store, you feel that you're in control.
It's not taking back control of your life. And so retailers, you can actually increase people's sense of autonomy by giving them a choice, putting them in control of their shopping experience. They want actually. Enhance people's sense of wellbeing in a postcode the world and attract more, more questions.
There's about [00:34:00] putting the shopper in control. The sense of autonomy.
Tony Saldanha: [00:34:03] So the way you might put the shop back in control, I assume, would be through the experience. Um, you know, whether it is, um, uh, finding products easier or it could also be the experience of returning a product. Is, is that, is that an example?
Paul Marsden: [00:34:18] Yes. So they feeling in control that they are not a kind of slave to the website, um, or some chat bot that just doesn't speak human speak, um, that, that, that they are actually, they are in control of the transaction. So it's about giving people choices. So giving them an AOB, rather than this one says, by giving people your recommendations can mean people two or three recommend Fundations my way.
When they come through online or in store it's about people perceive, but when people are given control in shopping to actually browse where they want, look for what they want and buy what they, that they want. Um, then they actually, they, they feel, they feel better. They feel better afterwards.
[00:35:00] Tony Saldanha: [00:34:59] Yes, please go ahead and get us.
Paul Marsden: [00:35:01] Yeah, that's a thing you said that's the a and the arc of happiness.
So if you both retailers want to actually improve people's wellbeing and put them to work, find ways that you can put that the shop or the customer in control of the premises. The second one is their sense of relatedness. This idea that we're, um, that, that, uh, you know, we need to feel connected it's to each other.
And, uh, again, the retail therapy research experiment research is when you shop alone, um, you actually, there's very little positive impact on your mood. However, Um, sometimes when you show up with too many people in a crowded and you're trying to get through, or you're trying to sort of, uh, trying to get through, we don't feel good either, but actually having a, kind of a social background, actually showing reviews of other people that have seen on site, people that are browsing right now, or seeing other people, people actually this kind of background, social noise actually improves people's sense of relatedness that, Hey, I'm a shopper amongst others with other people.
Doing things [00:36:00] at the same time, but people seem to create a more social experience. Well, I think in, in, in China, I think whether they are so far ahead of us in the U S and in Europe on this, they, they, they, they've got a group via platforms such as pin, which is, you know, third biggest eCommerce platform now in China.
Where people come together and shop together and begin to negotiate better prices together. It's kind of a Groupon on steroids, but done right with in psychology. Um, but human psychology evolved and it's hugely successful. So I think there's going to be a big opportunity amongst other group by social buying.
How can we make the retail experience? How can we look at what was great about group on the died? A horrible death when that's still up? Sorry. So I probably shouldn't say that, but it's still there. It's been around, but a shadow of its former self. Um, how can we make that social experience and try and make shopping more social?
And I think Facebook shops, you know, that are a real opportunity there as well. You know, [00:37:00] Facebook's finally stepped into, uh, to, to offer some kind of social commerce to shops on its, um, on its platform. So absolutely. Some hope for the future of actually making online shopping, which will solitary making it a more social experience and therefore actually having a positive impact on human wellbeing.
Tony Saldanha: [00:37:17] And, and the fascinating thing about, you know, these yeah. Examples Paul is that, um, for long, there's been a misconception that, uh, shopping online is. It's incompatible with interaction with other people, right? So, you know, the ability to actually go out into the shop, you know, London for other shoppers, you know, meet friends in, uh, uh, maybe stop by at a restaurant, you know, all that kind of stuff.
But you know, the examples that you're providing, you know, not just ratings and reviews, but group buying, uh, and, and even the integration, which. We checked in China and others have had for 10 years now, where you, you, you actually don't [00:38:00] separate social interaction from actually buying is a good example that it doesn't need to be binary.
It doesn't need to be social experience or, you know, commercial. You could, you could actually mix both together. Isn't that true?
Paul Marsden: [00:38:14] Yeah, no, no, it is. No, I think again, China's doing it, they're doing it to under the lockdown. They had all these stores that were closed and all these, uh, uh, sales reps, uh, store sales reps couldn't do anything. So what did they do? They started doing live demos, connected. With consumers live streaming so they can actually talk and discuss.
Once they're showing people products, we're actually creating a virtual link to a store. And so you're actually interacting with a real life human being rather than a chat bot algorithm to actually show you around the store. And I think as we move into a more, a world of next generation e-commerce as well as we moved in, I think we'll see a lot more of this live streaming connecting humans.
Yeah. W w through zoom like technology, um, as a new kind of win, no into the world [00:39:00] of retail that actually joins physical retail with, uh, uh, with digital retail.
Tony Saldanha: [00:39:04] It is. And you know, what's funny is that, um, uh, there was some chatter for a while that, you know, these late night shopping channels, QVC. The hope, hope and shopping channel in the U S I'm sure there's equal everywhere in the world. You know, maybe what a dying breed. Right. You know, um, it's only the sleep deprived, you know, what's them, or, you know, that kind of stuff.
But in reality, what you were just describing the integration of, you know, video technology, zoom, and these micro sites, you know, somebody talking from their bedroom, uh, demoing a product, um, It's the integration of those very, very old methods of selling by demoing and, and eCommerce. And that's fascinating as well.
Paul Marsden: [00:39:46] Yeah, I think is the future. I would say we are social web born to be with other people and say, we need to, we need to reinvent eCommerce to be a more social IMR human experience.
[00:40:00] Tony Saldanha: [00:40:00] Yes, that's true. And then, uh, let's, let's talk a little more about competence.
Paul Marsden: [00:40:03] Okay, well, competence. Yeah. So we all like, we like to feel competent when you get, when we feel down, when we feel incompetent about ourselves, you know, you're feeling competent about the, the effort you're putting into your job or the, the effort you're putting into. Your significant other, and you're not getting any kind of return on investment.
We just feeling competent and, and actually depression is actually nature's way of saying, Hey, you're investing in the wrong person, the wrong job, just stop. So we get depressed and we don't do stuff that clip that clinically is what happens when we get, when we get depressed. Um, however, when we feel.
Well, when we, when we feel positive, when we climb that mountain, when we did Jeeps, I think when we, when we gained some kind of mastery or success, we feel positive. So actually focusing, how can we make shoppers feel more competent? And then, you know, the, the, the work on re. Cell therapy that seems to be showing her where retail therapist needs to be.
Some of the most time, most [00:41:00] effective is when consumers feel or shop has feel they've got a really good deal, or they found that unique product. Um, there's work with, with TJ max, actually, um, you know, there's the, that the retail store and that actually hooks people up to kind of little, um, A brain out. So powerful brain scan, uh, scan and go people to wander around the shop.
And they found that the electrical signal or, um, when people find that good that they'd been looking for, it's actually a kin to the same, uh, signature signals. When you kiss somebody. We get this pleasure of, um, so literally kissing somebody, making that fine to get the pleasure of kissing. And so how can we build that kind of pleasure of, of kissing by having that fine, making it more discounting, you're creating more discovery and then feeding you've actually, you haven't been.
Screwed by the retailer, you've actually found the very best deal. And so you feel good about yourself as a shopper because you feel competent and smart. It's about now that the future of retail is about helping shoppers feel smarter. [00:42:00] And the more we can use technology to do that, whether it be through comparisons, I get getting great deals.
So for our group buy it's because get group discounts, the smarter people feel and the better they will feel, Emma, the more retails that should be sort of helping, um, human wellbeing.
Tony Saldanha: [00:42:15] That's fabulous. Yes. And, um, you mentioned technology, um, uh, one of the things that, you know, I'd like to hear a little more about is, um, in store related technology, um, you know, pre pandemic, um, You know, there used to be a lot of focus on, uh, merchandising and shelving and eye-tracking, and, and, and, and more recently also Omni channel, you know, connecting online, offline shopping experience, uh, virtual reality, you know, so on and so forth.
Um, from a psychologist's standpoint, Um, you know, what's been your experience, um, you know, is, is the store then essentially becoming, you know, more of a, um, uh, more of a social interaction, entertainment, infotainment, [00:43:00] kind of a location beyond just a transactional experience.
Paul Marsden: [00:43:04] I think you've, I think the jury jury is out on that and I have a particular perspective on it. I'm I'm surrounded with, by people of my mind, fellow lecturers as a university who believe in the. Future of the experience economy and experiential retail. Um, as a psychologist, I think there are two, there are things there they're big blood road blocks in this.
We are. Hardwired when we do any kind of transaction is to, to weigh out what we get out of something with what it costs. And so we, we are value seeking creatures and whether it be through interactions, um, or shopping purchases, and there is a limit to what people will pay in terms of four, four, four, four, for these things, people will try to minimize the time I try to minimize the effort.
You'll minimize the cults was trying to maximize what they get out of it. So w we, we want to, uh, be the best [00:44:00] bang. Bang for buck. Um, and say, I think with them, we're seeing a lot of these kind of big, uh, experiential retail hubs, um, that, uh, that are suffering because the financial liability do you actually make enough money out of your, your experiential showroom, um, to actually survive.
So they have a hard. Onto realities as we move into a kind of postcode recession will actually not be too kind to some of these experiential, uh, experiential outlets, which try and promote dwell time. When the very thing a lot of shoppers are gonna want to do is kind of minimize, um, their own dwell time.
Where I think to answer your question. I think they did the opportunity. Lies is actually to gain, move to China, you know, live in Hong Kong. And so I was over there last year, looking at that, uh, Jack Miles sort of, uh, his new retail operations with his fresh Shippo stores that can then do a sort of 30 buy something, get it cooked and delivered for you.
Um, within, within 30 minutes, you know, So three kilometer radius and it's this theater [00:45:00] built in, but he promotes a kind of a, a post channel, not Omni channel or post channel, a world of that that is completely digitalized. And whereas where the physical store is used for showrooming. So did you get to see the product it's used for servicing and it's used as fulfillment, and I think you've seen some really exciting things with Walmart, actually having micro using their stores, still space for micro fulfillment hubs.
Super close. You got that. Uh, yeah, I am Amazon, then the buyer buying whole foods and actually using those as kind of a spokes or mini hubs to actually for, for, for, for deliveries. So I think we're going to see a reinvention of retail, of, of physical retail, where the store is actually for showrooming servicing and fulfillment, as well as for, for traditional shopping.
Tony Saldanha: [00:45:47] That's a, that's fascinating that the evolving role of the store, um, this reminds me of something I had seen. I think this was in 2010, uh, in the Czech Republic in, in, in one of their train or subway. [00:46:00] Uh, areas where, you know, for commuters going home, um, the walls off of the stations were basically pasted with, um, with, uh, groceries and QR code.
So you could basically be shopping by taking pictures of the QR code, um, even as you were going home. So, uh, so you know, your grocery store could be right there as part of your commuting experience. So that is, um, That's an interesting evolution as well.
Paul Marsden: [00:46:25] Yeah. During the, I think the code process, we, we we've seen, um, the, this, this technology I'm sort of check out the stores and mobile and, you know, China's on mobile checklist store because the great thing about, you know, the, the much, uh, drives the QR code is that it enables really simply to do contactless it's commerce.
When I, in a world where people are. W wanting contact us, wanting to stay safe, not wanting to touch people. I think the future's going to be a rely on it will rely on actually working out in a creative way, how to make contactless commerce, [00:47:00] commerce work, where there is no rules. The risk of, uh, of infection and it's completely seamless.
And, uh, it was saying that, um, in Europe we're seeing the thing, the rise of these, uh, these unmanned stalls, or you've got all smart vending machines where you can just, we can interact via your, uh, your, your, your smartphone or because you don't want to touch that. Screens is rather than touch base. This posts, touch commerce, um, you know, touch free commerce.
You can actually interact in order and get your product without a human, other human touching. It.
Tony Saldanha: [00:47:30] That's that's fabulous. That's amazing. And, um, I, uh, I also want to point on listeners, two words, uh, your microsite. Don't panic, dark world, where you've got, um, you know, a lot of resources, um, uh, related to retail therapy. Is there anything you'd like to add to that
Paul Marsden: [00:47:46] Yeah. I mean, I put together, when this thing happened, we went down to lock down and I got together with a friend and a, another psychologist said, well, we wanted to do something to help people keep saying during their log down experience. And, um, and so [00:48:00] there are basically, they're the little bits of positive psychology, psychology of wellbeing, little interventions that you can do to stay sane.
And what's interesting if you look, if you get into. The panic.world. You'll see that they're built around this idea of the arc of some of these arc arc of happiness theater. How to promote a sense of autonomy when you're in lockdown, how to boost the sense of relatedness, how to feel smart and competent about stuff, your stuff, stuff, your stuff you're doing.
So I think in terms of practical evidence-based things made from a refuge. Come at those sites. If you go as a consumer, I was like, you actually look at it with the eyes of a, as a retailer. Maybe you'll see some opportunities for how you can reinvent retail for our postcode with world.
Tony Saldanha: [00:48:44] That's dead. That sounds like a great resource. Um, very, very timely. Uh, so certainly would point our listeners towards that. So, um, Paul, unfortunately, um, we're kind of running out of time. You know, I had a list of about 20 other [00:49:00] questions that I wanted to run through. So we're going to have to find a way to bring you back, but you know, by way of conclusion, if there was one piece of advice, You would want to give retailers on, you know, what they should be doing right now in the midst of all of this.
Right. What would that be? Oh, yes. You know, you buy one, get one free. Sure.
Paul Marsden: [00:49:23] Yeah, I won't get one free. Um, so first and first thing is I doubt it started with all the psychology suggests that. People will go back pretty much to their pre COVID cells when the COVID has disappeared. So don't believe all the hype and all the consults and retail consultants that are games everything's changed forever.
The shop has changed forever. They haven't. Preexisting trends will have accelerated what, what the caving crisis is doing is accelerating the trends that you, as retailers knew that were happening. Um, consumers are [00:50:00] getting smarter. They're using technology to do it. Digital trend transformation is a must.
They are moving online. These are, these are trends that existed before and they're being accelerated. The consumer, the shopper will not change because of this. It will not, it will not change the world of retail. And the world, the world of shopping, just accelerate trends that were happening before. And the second, the second point is actually a sub point in that is that when we talked about it a bit, this is the moment to actually stop talking about digital transformation and start actually doing it.
It really is. We need to reinvent retail for digital first way. Go to. A check mouth Alibaba site, and look at new retail, understand how you can actually create digitalize the whole of retail, um, with, to create more value for your, for, for, for, for your customers. Um, so that I think they digitalize or die.
Um, and don't, um, I don't think human nature has been [00:51:00] completely changed because of the COVID crisis.
Tony Saldanha: [00:51:02] That's very specific. And incredibly helpful. Um, dr. Paul Marsden, uh, was my guest today, um, renowned, uh, retail psychologist, consumer psychologist. Thank you, Paul, for joining us today. I, I have to say I learned a lot and I really, really enjoyed speaking with you. Thank you for being here.
Paul Marsden: [00:51:24] It's been a blast. Thank you very much.
Tony Saldanha: [00:51:26] And thanks once again to all of our listeners out there, make sure you subscribe at www dot, winning retail podcast.com. And until next time, keep reinventing retail.